Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

All your other probs if any.
Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

When recently cleaning my partners 2005 plate 1.6 206cc Allure Auto, I put the roof down for better access. The rear passenger side quarter window made a horrible sound (grating/knocking) as it went down and an even worse noise when it (thankfully) went back up.

I tried to get to look at the mechanism thinking (naively) that gaining access to it would be simple; I failed!

My partner took her beloved car (only done 23,600 miles since she bought it new) to the local Peugeot dealers who promptly charged £109 for a "diagnostic test" and then told us that the mechanism was faulty and as the part was obsolete so there was nothing they could do. Their only suggestion was to source a second hand mechanism that they would then fit for £190. I feel sure that I could do a repair or replace job if I can get to see whats causing the noise.

Is it easy to get to the window mechanism, as the repair manuals all seem to require a virtual strip down of the rear interior of the car? Can anyone suggest a source for the part if its beyond repair? What other parts should I source (e.g new seals)?

Thanks
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

IanL
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 10:34 pm
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by IanL »

The strip-down is correct, hence the quote from the dealer. The parts you likely need are usually available on EBay. The motors are quite pricey, but the other bits (Regulator Repair Kit) are not.

Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

Until I manage to get to see the mechanism it’s not possible to know what may be needed, but are there any obvious parts? e.g. The on-line repair guide says that the sealing sheet should be replaced.
Reference to my post on orphan hyperlinks in the repair guide, one of the first stages of the strip down is the removal of the rear quarter panel side top trim (which isn’t linked) and I’m struggling to see how this comes off. Even with the Haynes manual showing photos of it’s removal I can’t find the clips that hold in position!
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

Ronnie
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:38 pm
Location: Thornley County Durham

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Ronnie »

If i remember correctly, all you need to do is get you fingers as best you can around the bottom and pull up. It is better to have some spare plastic clips as they tend to break with age. Once you have the trim off you will see the clips and they are always available on ebay for pennies.
Peugeot 206 cc 2006 1.6 petrol
Vauxhall Corsa 2016 1.4 petrol

Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

"To cut a long story short", I finally managed to strip down the back quarter panel to gain access to the window mechanism. The winding cable has broken away from the plastic clip that connects to the moving parts that hold the glass, see photo
EK05BZR rear qtr window LH mechanism.jpeg
I haven't yet had the courage to remove the whole mechanism from the car as I don't have a covered secure/covered area once the glass is out. As I am also not sure what other problems I may find, I eventually found & bought a complete used mechanism off ebay (rare as hens teeth!). It's cost c£100 but I don't think Peugeot will strip down the old one and fit the repair kit that is widely available (having previously said if I sourced a spare mechanism they would fit it).
In gaining access I have torn the inner water seal sheet. I haven't gone back to the Peugeot dealers yet to confirm they'll replace it but in anticipation of needing other bits, does anyone know if the water seal sheet is still available? Similarly the outer air seal sheet, although in one piece probably should be replaced (as recommended in the repair guide)?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

IanL
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 10:34 pm
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by IanL »

You can buy plastic sheeting cheaply on EBay.

Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

Oh the perils of buying on eBay! Having secured what I believed to be a complete window mechanism (accepting it being used), and relying on the accuracy of the description stating “as in pictures”, should I be surprised when opening the box to find a different one to the photos and with a broken guide piece? Perhaps the joy of finding one overcame my normal caution and “caveat emptor” approach. So it back to plan B and I have ordered off Amazon one of the repair kits sold by Clak consisting of cables x 2, winder spool, spring and cable clip. At £9.95 if it’s not right then I don’t feel as bad as paying out over £100! I did look at the repair kits from LST that include the guide pulley wheels as well at c£70 inc postage.
Has anyone bought either of these kits with success?
Looking further back in time through the “problems > other” forum I see that rear window mechanism is a recurring issue with many people. Does this warrant the topic becoming a sticky one?
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

Having bitten the bullet and deciding to repair the window mechanism myself I am trying to prepare for all eventualities. As I have nowhere under cover to keep the car once the roof is down so I am waiting for a few days clear of rain is a start!
I have now removed all the weather strips (and purchased a variety of new clips) and slackened the fixing bolts to allow removal of the glass from the rest of the mechanism. As one of the wires had got jammed somewhere I can’t see/get to, I’ve had to cut the wire. In moving the window mounting plate manually and activating the motor to release the tension I am worried that I may confuse the roof ECU as it will not know if the window is up or down and not be able to get the roof back up. As there are no micro switches for the window how does the ECU know the window is up or down?
Also, what determines the completion of travel in either direction? Obviously you pull the switch up or push it down (the circuit wiring diagram shows separate 12v lines for each Nos. 614 & 615).
When I fit the new cables how does the motor know when it has reached it’s maximum rotation (and hence window travel) in either direction.
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

IanL
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 10:34 pm
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by IanL »

These are good questions which I have asked myself. I think the answer is that the Roof ECU "remembers" whether the windows are up or down. Also, it decides whether the raise or lower process is complete by counting time and possibly monitoring the motor current. I have had a sticky window which would stop halfway down, and the ECU would stop trying after a certain period, and carry on lowing the roof. Also, a window would stick not quite up, with the same result.

As I said elsewhere, if the roof will not raise, raise it manually. Then disconnect the battery, following the BSI Reboot process, which will reset the Roof ECU and should allow the windows to be raised and lowered, and reinstate roof control.

Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

Well, I have managed to remove the window mechanism, stripped it down and cleaned it. Why did I wait till November when the weather’s changed for the worse I am asking myself. Nowhere under cover to keep the car so a temporary qtr window made of stiff card and plastic sheeting is just about keeping the rain out. One problem no one seems to have raised is to get the sliding plate and winding spool in the right place for access to fit the cable ends to requires the motor to be run. To do this means lowering the door window which will only go back up when the controlling relay box gets the signal that the qtr window is fully up. This only seems to happen when the regulator winder cannot pull any more wire and the spring on the motor/winder case is totally compressed. Presumably there’s a sensor that recognises the motor is pulling more current so switches it off. It’s a catch 22, in that you can’t get access to fit both cable ends to the plastic piece on the centre slide unless the plate is nearly fully up (or fully up if you need to put the door window up) but trying to maintain control over the loose wire such that it doesn’t jam up the winder wheel isn’t that easy. At one stage I thought I was going to be stuck with the door window permanently down, but some how managed to trip the relay box into allowing it to rise.

New problem: has anyone found the replacement cables to be slightly short (or as yet unstretched through use?) that even with the spring completely compressed, and held so by use of tie-wraps, you cannot fit both cable ends end into the plastic piece on the central side. Fitting the “up” cable first I have only managed to fit the “down” cable only by leaving out the spring that sits inside the plastic piece, not a permanent solution. Does any have a suggestion please? Otherwise I’m stuffed and running out of ideas.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

IanL
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 10:34 pm
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by IanL »

I don't know that this will help with your current problem, but the door window control can be overridden by unplugging the connector and applying 12V to the motor. If you get it the wrong way round it's no problem, just reverse your connections.

Looking at your last pic, it seems to be a Bowden cable, so could you disassemble it and shorten the outer?

EDIT: I have checked the set of replacements in my "come in handy" collection, and mine seem to use a length of plastic tubing as an outer, so it should be possible to shorten with a very sharp knife and a bit of care, without withdrawing the inner.

Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

Thanks Ian.

I managed to get both cables (with spring in place) fitted into the white plastic connector by taking the motor and cable winder off the base plate, fitting the plastic connector onto the centre slider then pivoting the motor on one of the pillars and then rotating it into place. This has left both springs (in the connector and the Bowden cable) fully compressed and the cables taught.

When testing the mechanism powered by the car’s wiring loom the central slide with the white connector gets so tight against the plastic guide as it passes through the transition bend on the up cycle that the motor sensor thinks it has reached end stop and the rear function locking relay (box 126) switches power to raise the front window. If you “give it a helping hand” then once past the guide it travels to the top ok. I am hoping that with time the cables will stretch slightly allowing it to pass more easily. (I can’t find a circuit diagram specifically for the 206cc windows and roof so I am assuming the generic 206 diagrams reflects a similar path through the rear window locking relay.

Your suggestion to shorten the outer sleeve of the Bowden cable will give some relief the the compressed spring but do nothing for the tightness of the cable.

I tried powering the motor by connecting it to a 12v power pack but couldn’t get the motor to respond. Whether there’s some sensor circuitry in the pack that doesn’t allow the motor to draw the current I’m not sure. It can’t possibly draw as much as a starter motor so why it doesn’t work I don’t know.
Another strange thing is when connected to the car’s loom it doesn’t required to be earthed to the car’s chassis. The two wires going to the motor drove are connected to either side of the +12v feed to the switch (box128 1A & 4B) so presumably go to relevant motor coil windings to determine the up/down direction. So where’s the -ve connection?

I’m now waiting for some dry weather to be able to lower the roof, align the glass and refit the weather seals.

Any further thoughts or suggestions are always welcome.
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

IanL
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 10:34 pm
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by IanL »

I think you'll find that shortening the bowden cable outer will allow the cable to take a more direct path, thus effectively creating slack in the cable, and allowing the spring to regulate the tension, which is its function. It cannot do that if fully compressed.

EDIT: This is how bicycle brake adjusters work - by lengthening or shortening the bowden cable outer.

I can't offer any suggestion why applying 12V to the motor does not work, but it must be due to the power pack. If you have enough cabling to connect to the car's battery, that should work.

The way the motor is controlled is for the +12V and -12V (i.e. earth) to be swapped around by relay switching - the motor does not have a separate earth. This is common with many, if not all, car windows.

Jez39
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:17 pm
Location: Essex UK

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by Jez39 »

Thank you for this Ian, but :o, disaster strikes! Just as I had it all back together and was preparatory lower the roof to fit the top trim I heard a grating noise as the window lowered. Putting it swiftly back up I could see that the wire in the Bowden cable had 3-4 broken strands where it emerges from the outer casing, just before the top pulley wheel. I must have kinked the wire as some point and weakened it.

Edit: I should have said that after a few test runs before refitting it into the car, there was sufficient leeway in the Bowden cable for the spring to open and compress slightly when the window plate reached the end stops on the up cycle. I couldn’t see if the same were true for the spring in the white connector on the down cycle though.

I lowered the glass a little to see how bad it was and when I put it back up to the end stops, “bang” the cable snapped. So it had to grab the broken end of the Bowden cable with some mole grips and lever them against the chassis while pressing the window switch up to make the cable taught and fool the relay box to think that the qtr window was up, thus switching to the door window and allowing this to be raised. Shows how careful you need to be with these wires.

So it’s back to square one. Do I give up and see if a garage will fit another repair kit, or have another go my self? As I have no where under cover and winter is setting in I’m coming down in favour of the former!

I bought the last kit off Amazon, made by Clak
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71W ... SX679_.jpg
Which, as I previously said, was such a tight fit I am wondering if I should “go German” and buy the next one from LST :scratch: . I did see in another thread on the forum that someone else thought the cable was too short, but I don’t think they said where it came from.
Last edited by Jez39 on Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
05 plate 1.6 petrol 206cc Allure Automatic

IanL
Posts: 1526
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 10:34 pm
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands

Re: Rear n/s quarter window mechanism terrible noise

Post by IanL »

My thought is that few garages will have much experience of this job - in fact, you may now have more!

There may be something to be said for buying from Germany - popular wisdom is that German consumers do not tolerate 2nd class products.